**Sitting in the Park — Interview with The Radiants** **Bob Abrahamian** 03:13 Okay, you're tuned to WHPK 88.5 FM in Chicago. You are now listening to the _Sitting in the Park_ show. Today we have a very special show. Usually, most listeners know my regular theme is called “Southside Chicago,” but I thought I would play the song my show is named after because I have very special guests today: legendary Chicago group the Radiants, who are actually the guys who sing backup on that song. So every time, you know, I'm driving around in the car trying to hit those high notes, those are the guys who are actually hitting those notes on the song. So I thought I would actually start off with that song, and we'll be playing their actual records, and they'll be telling their stories. I'm so honored to have them on the show today. So first of all, I was wondering if you guys could introduce yourselves. **Maurice McAllister** 04:10 Maurice McAllister. **Wallace Sampson** 04:12 And I'm Wallace Sampson. **Bob Abrahamian** 04:18 Okay. And we hope to have on the phone later member Mitchell Bullock, who we couldn't get on, but hopefully we'll be able to get him on the phone later. Thanks so much for coming down. It's so awesome. I'm so honored to have you guys on the show. **Wallace Sampson** 04:33 We're honored to be here. **Bob Abrahamian** 04:35 So first of all, could you talk about what part of Chicago you guys are from? **Maurice McAllister** 04:41 South Side. **Wallace Sampson** 04:44 South Side. 38th and Federal. **Maurice McAllister** 04:47 That's right. That's where we spent our adolescent childhood. I moved over when I was 16. **Bob Abrahamian** 04:57 Were you guys born in Chicago? **Maurice McAllister** 04:59 Yeah, I was. **Wallace Sampson** 05:01 I was born in Little Rock, Arkansas. I was a year old when they came here. **Bob Abrahamian** 05:10 Okay. **Wallace Sampson** 05:11 Little Rock to Chicago. **Bob Abrahamian** 05:13 And how did you get started singing? **Wallace Sampson** 05:17 Well, mostly in church. I know I did. I used to sing in choirs. I sang in a storefront choir with Green McLaurin, at a church called New Mount Calvary. **Bob Abrahamian** 05:35 Where was that? **Wallace Sampson** 05:36 47th and Wells. Yeah. So that's where I started. That's where I got my first, you know, taste of singing, in the little choir. **Bob Abrahamian** 05:45 How old were you when you started singing there? **Wallace Sampson** 05:47 About 15. **Bob Abrahamian** 05:49 Okay. And how long were you singing in that choir? **Wallace Sampson** 05:54 A few years. And then from there we went to Greater Harvest Baptist Church. **Bob Abrahamian** 05:59 And where is that? **Wallace Sampson** 06:00 5125 South State. The pastor was Reverend Louis Boddie, and the choir was called the Greater Harvest Intermediate Choir. **Bob Abrahamian** 06:13 And that church is still there, is that right? **Wallace Sampson** 06:15 Oh, it's still there. **Bob Abrahamian** 06:16 Okay, but that choir is not. Is it still called that? **Wallace Sampson** 06:20 They call themselves the Young Adult Choir, you know, but they still have young people like we were. **Maurice McAllister** 06:25 Yes, and Green McLaurin, a member of my group, he's back in the choir there now. He's back at the church singing in the choir. **Bob Abrahamian** 06:33 He must be a legend there now. **Maurice McAllister** 06:35 Well, so to speak. **Bob Abrahamian** 06:38 Okay. So do you remember what years you were getting into the choir back then? **Maurice McAllister** 06:45 Well, let me tell that story, because I was there first, following Leonard Caston's sister, Barbara. She was singing with the pianist for the Greater Harvest Youth Choir, and she was singing in a secular group away from the church. I was kind of sweet on her. I used to halfway follow her around, so she talked me into coming down to the church one day. When I walked in and saw all these young ladies in the choir, I came back on Federal Street and told all these gentlemen—all of us Federal Street friends. We all got in the choir, and every one of us got married to a lady out of that choir. **Bob Abrahamian** 07:27 So you joined the choir to chase all the beautiful women in the choir. **Maurice McAllister** 07:33 Yep. That's why I went down there. When I told everybody, all of them came and joined the choir. So that's where it was. **Bob Abrahamian** 07:40 Are you saying that Leonard Caston was the pianist in the choir? Is that what you're saying? **Maurice McAllister** 07:46 It was his sister I was talking about, Barbara Caston. That's the reason why I came to the church in the first place—following her. **Bob Abrahamian** 07:55 Okay. Did you say you got married to her? **Maurice McAllister** 07:59 No, no. **Bob Abrahamian** 08:00 Okay, but originally you were sweet on her. **Maurice McAllister** 08:04 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 08:05 Okay. And do you remember what year you joined the choir? **Maurice McAllister** 08:08 What was that? Fifty-something. **Wallace Sampson** 08:11 '55. **Maurice McAllister** 08:12 Yeah, '55 or something like that. **Bob Abrahamian** 08:14 Okay. And you were telling me that you were like 15 or 16 when you started singing there? **Wallace Sampson** 08:23 Well, at New Mount Calvary. **Bob Abrahamian** 08:25 Okay. **Wallace Sampson** 08:26 About 17, 18 when I started singing at Greater Harvest. **Bob Abrahamian** 08:31 Yeah. Okay. And then how long were you in the choir before you decided to form a secular group? **Wallace Sampson** 08:33 Oh, wow. We were in the church choir at least about three or four years. About '59 or '60, we decided that we wanted to try singing secular music. **Bob Abrahamian** 08:59 And what was it? Was it just the success of all the secular groups that made you want to change up your style? **Wallace Sampson** 09:07 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 09:08 Okay. So how did you come up with the members of your secular group? Was it just members of your choir? **Maurice McAllister** 09:13 Right. **Bob Abrahamian** 09:14 And what was the original name of the secular group you came up with? **Maurice McAllister** 09:19 We had a couple of names before we came up with— **Wallace Sampson** 09:22 The first one was the Corvettes. That worked because it was a [unclear] car. We liked the Corvette car. **Maurice McAllister** 09:30 I remember that, yeah. **Wallace Sampson** 09:32 So we had to go from there. Then we became the Troubadours. **Maurice McAllister** 09:36 Right. Yeah. That's when we were playing as the Troubadours, and we changed from the Troubadours. **Bob Abrahamian** 09:44 Okay. So how'd you come up with the name the Radiants? **Wallace Sampson** 09:48 It's kind of debatable. We just wrote down a list of names. I think [unclear] might have had the name, you know. **Maurice McAllister** 10:03 No, if I remember right, we were trying to describe— I don't know who picked the one, but I was trying to define it. Yeah, “Radiants” is a good name because it says something that shines and is outgoing. So, yeah, that's why we took the name. **Bob Abrahamian** 10:18 And it was a unique name, too. I don't think anyone else came up with that name, because most other groups had a name that probably five other groups came up with. But I don't think there were any other Radiants, so you had a unique name. So what was the original lineup of the Radiants at that time? **Maurice McAllister** 10:38 Wallace Sampson, Maurice McAllister, Elzy Butler, Jerome Brooks, and Charles Washington. **Bob Abrahamian** 10:48 Yeah. And were all five guys members of your choir? **Maurice McAllister** 10:51 Yes. **Bob Abrahamian** 10:52 Okay. And did you guys all live around the same area? **Maurice McAllister** 10:56 Yeah, basically. South Side. **Bob Abrahamian** 10:58 So, like, around 38th Street, you were saying? **Maurice McAllister** 11:01 No, that's where he and I come from. The others were close around about the 51st Street area. Say from 55th to maybe about 48th, and from King Drive over to about Princeton. All of us were in that area. **Bob Abrahamian** 11:17 Okay. Did that area have a name around that time? Like, did that neighborhood have a specific name you called it? **Maurice McAllister** 11:25 Just called it the South Side. I know one thing they called it—the Bucket of Blood. **Bob Abrahamian** 11:34 Okay. **Maurice McAllister** 11:35 Oh, boy, with all them dudes, it was— **Bob Abrahamian** 11:38 Lots of gangs in that area? **Maurice McAllister** 11:39 55th Street was a bunch of taverns and things, so they used to call it the Bucket of Blood because all the guys used to hang out. That's what happened to us when we first joined the choir. All the neighborhood toughs, or whatever you want to call them, used to give us a bunch of trouble because we were in the choir. Calling us sissies and things like that, you know, because we were singing in a choir. **Bob Abrahamian** 12:04 Okay, you were basically in church. So people didn't even have respect for the church folks? **Maurice McAllister** 12:11 That was the local gangbangers that lived around there. That was on 51st and State. That was before they put up those projects. That was way back in the '50s. The projects weren't up then. It was just regular homes. **Bob Abrahamian** 12:24 Okay. So what year did the Radiants officially form? Was it late '50s sometime? **Maurice McAllister** 12:33 Early '60s, because we didn't do that much in the '50s, did we? About '61, when we first started figuring out, “Let's do something. Let's see if we can get into this thing here, this group business.” **Bob Abrahamian** 12:51 Okay. So one of the first things you did was cut a demo, and it's really rare, because most of the time when groups would cut demos, they would cut a dub, like an acetate. But you guys actually went and pressed up a record, and it was four songs. Can you explain the story behind it? **Maurice McAllister** 13:15 Lee Jackson Jr., he was our manager at the time, and he had a friend named Chuck Parham. He was a musician, a bass player, and they decided to cut a demo on us so they could take it to the different record companies, you know, farm it out and try to get a contract. So that's how we happened to do that. **Bob Abrahamian** 13:40 So who was your manager's name again? Lee Jack— **Maurice McAllister** 13:46 Lee Jackson Jr. **Bob Abrahamian** 13:48 Okay. So how did you get the manager? How did you find a manager at the time? **Wallace Sampson** 13:52 Lee Jackson Jr. was our bass singer Elzy Butler's cousin. **Bob Abrahamian** 14:03 So your bass singer's cousin was also your manager? **Wallace Sampson** 14:08 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 14:09 Your bass singer's cousin was your bass player and your manager? **Maurice McAllister** 14:14 No, he was just our manager. **Bob Abrahamian** 14:15 Manager. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm getting confused. So then he took you to a recording studio, and you recorded this demo? **Wallace Sampson** 14:32 First we started rehearsing over at his house. That's where Maurice was doing some songwriting, and so we just started scheduling a couple rehearsals a week. He opened his house up, you know, so we could come. Basically, that's where we got our harmonies, by rehearsing, writing songs, learning songs, and learning different parts. So that's how we got started. **Bob Abrahamian** 15:01 Okay. **Wallace Sampson** 15:02 Just over at his house, you know. And he heard us, and evidently we sounded pretty good to him, and so he wanted to— **Maurice McAllister** 15:14 When we used to rehearse at Lee's house, all the kids in the neighborhood would be hanging outside the house, trying to hear what we were doing inside. So we had a big, big following before we ever even got a name, really. We'd be rehearsing the songs, and the kids would be listening to us practice. **Bob Abrahamian** 15:34 Right. Where was that house located? **Wallace Sampson** 15:37 It was at 49th and St. Lawrence. I don't know the exact address, but it was an apartment building. **Maurice McAllister** 15:46 The 4900 block. **Wallace Sampson** 15:47 Yeah, the 4900 block of St. Lawrence. **Bob Abrahamian** 15:48 Yeah. So the songs that you ended up cutting on this demo were called “Hit It,” “Joyce,” “Please Don't Leave Me,” and “Father Knows Best.” So who wrote all the songs? You guys, or you specifically? **Maurice McAllister** 16:05 Maurice wrote all of them. **Bob Abrahamian** 16:07 So had you ever written a song before? **Maurice McAllister** 16:09 No. **Bob Abrahamian** 16:10 So that was your first experience writing songs, writing these songs for your demo. How did you learn to write songs? It just came out of your head, pretty much? **Maurice McAllister** 16:19 In fact, just by— **Bob Abrahamian** 16:22 And did you know how to play an instrument at all, or did you just write the lyrics and sing the melody, pretty much? **Wallace Sampson** 16:29 He kept everything in his head. **Maurice McAllister** 16:32 I could pick it out. I did have bass lines, mostly. It was hard for me to write, but mostly when I'd come up with a song, I'd think about a bass line, then I'd write words to correspond to that. Vice versa, I don't really know, but I knew I could do that. **Bob Abrahamian** 16:49 Okay. So then you went to a studio and recorded these four songs. Do you remember what studio you went to? **Maurice McAllister** 16:57 Where did we go? We did do that— **Wallace Sampson** 17:00 I can't remember. [Possibly “Bob Bass”] around two or three hundred South Wabash. **Maurice McAllister** 17:09 Down almost in the Loop, yeah. **Wallace Sampson** 17:11 Yeah, in the Loop. **Maurice McAllister** 17:12 I forgot what the name of the place was. **Bob Abrahamian** 17:14 Okay. And then you had these pressed up—your manager had them pressed up? **Maurice McAllister** 17:20 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 17:20 And he pressed them up on a white label, with two songs on each side, and the intention was to shop them around to different record labels, correct? And Chess actually ended up re-recording two of the songs later. **Maurice McAllister** 17:35 Three of them, I think. **Bob Abrahamian** 17:37 Well, the songs were “Hit It,” “Joyce,” “Please Don't Leave Me,” and “Father Knows Best.” **Maurice McAllister** 17:42 “Please Don't Leave Me.” **Wallace Sampson** 17:45 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 17:47 Those two songs, I think. **Wallace Sampson** 17:49 They kept “Joyce” like it was. **Maurice McAllister** 17:51 Yeah, “Joyce,” they kept it like it was—the demo. They kept that just like it was. They didn't have to record that one over. **Bob Abrahamian** 17:59 Okay, so actually “Joyce” wasn't even a Chess production. It was your own production, and Chess just took it and released it as is. So did you shop the record around to different labels, or did you take it straight to Chess? **Maurice McAllister** 18:20 Lee Jackson was our manager at the time. He was shopping it around, trying to see what he could do. But he had kind of an in with Chess. **Wallace Sampson** 18:31 He worked at the stockyards. **Maurice McAllister** 18:36 Yeah, he worked at the stockyards. So, you know, they could take a little cut off and take it on, you know what I'm saying? Undercover, we'll put it like that. **Bob Abrahamian** 18:48 You mean he would give them some free meat? **Maurice McAllister** 18:51 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 18:56 Okay. So that's a pretty good in to a record label, hooking them up with some free meat. And you said he got you signed to Chess based on the demo? **Maurice McAllister** 19:04 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 19:05 So let me play the demo, and we can talk some more, because this is a cool record—the first record you ever wrote, right? Most people have never heard this, since it was never released. I mean, it was pressed up, and that's unusual because most of the time when people would cut a demo, they would press it as what we were talking about—a dub, like an acetate, which is usually like a metal lacquer. But this was actually pressed up as a real record. So let me play it. **Maurice McAllister** 19:36 Francis ain't listening, when she finds out why I wrote “Joyce,” because she didn't know Lee was going with— **Wallace Sampson** 19:42 Well, can I— **Bob Abrahamian** 19:46 So can I ask about who—or should I not ask about—well, I'll play the record. **Maurice McAllister** 19:51 Lee's in his grave now, so she probably wouldn't mind that. Lee was dealing with somebody on the side at his job, but he was married to somebody else. So I'm just saying, I hope maybe Francis—maybe she'll find out. But she knew. She found out about all of that, though. She knew that he was dealing with Joyce. **Bob Abrahamian** 20:08 So the song is actually written about a girl named Joyce? **Maurice McAllister** 20:12 Yes. **Bob Abrahamian** 20:13 Okay. So this is the Radiants with their very, very first record, which was never even released. It was a demo they used to get signed to Chess Records, and this track is called “Joyce.” **[music playing — “Joyce” by the Radiants]** 20:28 **Bob Abrahamian** 22:57 Okay, you're tuned to WHPK 88.5 FM in Chicago. You are now listening to the _Sitting in the Park_ show. If you're just tuning in, I have a very special show because I have in the studio right now two members of the Radiants, actually. And I'm still hopeful—it hasn't happened yet—but I'm hopeful that we will have one other member on the phone eventually. The two members I have in here are the original lead singer, who sings on the record I just played, Maurice McAllister, and one of the singers who was in the group continuously through all the lineups, Wallace Sampson. So we just played their very first record, which was called “Joyce,” and that record was actually never released. It was the demo they cut that got them signed to Chess Records. And you guys—we were just describing—I'm sorry, what? **Wallace Sampson** 24:03 “Please Don't Leave Me.” Also, “Please Don't Leave Me.” It was in the same category as “Joyce.” I forgot. **Bob Abrahamian** 24:13 Yeah, you don't have that. We recorded that one too. Yeah, that was also unreleased. Those two songs were unreleased, and then the two that were released were—well, “Hit It” was never released, was it? But “Father Knows Best” was released. And “Father Knows Best,” you're saying they released it as— **Maurice McAllister** 24:33 This was the first thing that was released on Chess Records. “Joyce” was done, but wasn't released on Chess. “Father Knows Best” was released. That was our first album— **Bob Abrahamian** 24:45 Your first single. **Maurice McAllister** 24:46 First single, rather. Yeah, single. **Bob Abrahamian** 24:49 So again, the songs on that demo—it was a four-song demo—were “Hit It,” “Joyce,” “Please Don't Leave Me,” and “Father Knows Best.” So who's singing? The lead on the record is you, Maurice McAllister, right? Who else sings on the record? **Maurice McAllister** 25:06 Wallace Sampson, Jerome Brooks, Elzy Butler. **Bob Abrahamian** 25:17 Who's singing bass on the record? **Maurice McAllister** 25:29 Elzy Butler. **Bob Abrahamian** 25:30 Okay. And how long was it after Chess signed you before they actually put out “Father Knows Best”? **Maurice McAllister** 25:38 A good six months. About six months. **Bob Abrahamian** 25:44 So Chess signed you, and was “Father Knows Best” the same version that was on the demo? They just put it out the same way? **Maurice McAllister** 25:52 No, we re-recorded it. **Bob Abrahamian** 25:54 Oh, so you did re-record it. Okay. So what were you doing at Chess for those six months? Were you kind of hanging out, or were they developing you? **Maurice McAllister** 25:58 We weren't at Chess at all until they called us in to do the songs, you know. We would rehearse before we actually cut it, but we weren't hanging around Chess at the time. **Bob Abrahamian** 26:10 Okay. Were you working at the time? Were you guys— **Maurice McAllister** 26:14 Yeah, everybody had other little jobs or whatever we were doing. **Bob Abrahamian** 26:18 Were you guys performing as a group? **Maurice McAllister** 26:23 No. **Wallace Sampson** 26:25 We did a few little shows, you know. Local-type shows. **Maurice McAllister** 26:32 For friends and things like that. **Bob Abrahamian** 26:35 Okay. So pretty much the first record Chess actually released on you was “Father Knows Best,” and the flip of that was “One Day I'll Show You,” and that came out in '62. **Maurice McAllister** 26:50 That's my favorite song of all we ever sung, “One Day I'll Show You.” **Bob Abrahamian** 26:54 That's also one of my favorite songs you did. **Maurice McAllister** 26:56 That was the first record that didn't have a repeating line all the way through. It didn't have a—what would you say—a chorus. It didn't have a chorus. That was the first record ever done like that. We had a first. Nobody ever really knows that. But if you listen to it, there's no repeated line. It's just a story told straight through. You know, usually you sing a verse and then come back with the refrain. You sing another verse and come back. No refrain. We just went straight on through. **Bob Abrahamian** 27:23 I never noticed that, actually. **Maurice McAllister** 27:24 Check it out. **Bob Abrahamian** 27:25 Because the song is so well written that, I guess, you don't even notice it, you know. **Maurice McAllister** 27:30 That's a true story. My first wife—that's who I wrote it for. **Bob Abrahamian** 27:36 Oh, really? Was she leaving you or something, and you wrote it for her? **Maurice McAllister** 27:41 No, I was trying to get to her, get next to her at the time. **Bob Abrahamian** 27:45 Oh, okay. You're saying you were trying to hook up with her, and you wrote the song. That's cool. **Maurice McAllister** 27:49 “Finally found a girl the Lord made especially for me.” So I'm just telling her, “You're the one.” **Bob Abrahamian** 27:54 So did it work? **Maurice McAllister** 27:56 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 27:56 Okay. Well, that's cool. **Maurice McAllister** 27:59 My son is one of the top DJs in Las Vegas now, between me and her. **Bob Abrahamian** 28:04 Well, it resulted in a beautiful song. **Maurice McAllister** 28:06 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 28:07 Because that song is so well written that you don't notice it. Most songs have a refrain because they need it to hold the song together. **Maurice McAllister** 28:15 But it's a continuous story. No refrain, actually. **Bob Abrahamian** 28:21 Yeah, that's definitely one of my favorite songs that you do. But “Father Knows Best” was the A-side, right? That's what Chess promoted at the time? **Maurice McAllister** 28:34 Well, both sides, really. We had split play, and I was told that's what contributed to neither side really taking off any more than it did, because they were playing both sides. At the time, if you had split play, instead of concentrating all the airplay on one side, they were splitting it between both sides. That's what we were told later on. **Bob Abrahamian** 28:57 So do you know how big of a hit it was? I know it didn't chart nationally, but it was a big hit in Chicago, right? **Wallace Sampson** 29:03 I think both sides went into the Top 100. I lost track of how far down they went, but it was in the 80s— **Bob Abrahamian** 29:17 70s? Oh, like on the pop charts? **Wallace Sampson** 29:18 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 29:20 Okay. I have the R&B charts in front of me, but it probably charted pop, not R&B. So did you guys start touring off of those songs? **Maurice McAllister** 29:29 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 29:30 So what kind of places did you go? **Maurice McAllister** 29:32 The very first place we went was the Apollo Theater. **Bob Abrahamian** 29:36 The first time you ever did any gig was the Apollo in New York City? **Maurice McAllister** 29:40 Right off that song. Yep. **Bob Abrahamian** 29:43 What was the story with that? **Maurice McAllister** 29:46 Oh, man, I hate to tell you. Chess Records got us a gig at the Apollo. We went there—we didn't know nothing. **Wallace Sampson** 29:57 We didn't have any arrangements. **Maurice McAllister** 30:00 No arrangements. We brought the record. We thought they would learn to play the arrangement, play the backgrounds off the record. We didn't know anything. [unclear phrase] and twice as green. We didn't know anything, you know. **Bob Abrahamian** 30:15 Because you guys had no working experience. **Maurice McAllister** 30:19 Nothing. Our first experience was at the Apollo Theater. **Bob Abrahamian** 30:22 The Apollo, with no working experience? **Maurice McAllister** 30:26 We went in there and they asked us for the music. We were looking at them like, “What are you talking about?” We didn't know anything. Then when they explained to us that we were supposed to have charts, they jumped on the phone and called back to Chess. So they told us, “Hold tight.” What happened was one of the members in the band wrote us some temporary charts—not real charts, but chord-change sheets. They played the record, and they had enough to know how the song went, and that's what got us over for a while. It took about two days for them to write the charts and send them from Chicago to New York, so we were really scuffling, trying to get over with that. And I was so scared I lost my voice. Remember, Green? **Wallace Sampson** 31:09 Yeah. **Maurice McAllister** 31:10 Green McLaurin had to—after that first night at the Apollo, I was so hoarse I couldn't make a sound. I was croaking like a frog. So we took the record, and Green McLaurin had to learn to sing the lead. We got back onstage with him singing the lead. **Bob Abrahamian** 31:31 And he was the bass, right? **Maurice McAllister** 31:33 No. **Bob Abrahamian** 31:34 Okay, okay. **Maurice McAllister** 31:35 He was singing the lead, and they were hollering, “That ain't the same group! Get off the stage, man!” Because, you know, he wasn't singing it like I was singing it. He had to learn it real quick in the hotel room. So for a couple of days—hey, I was so scared. Like I said, when I lost my voice, he had to take over. But when we got the charts, we had an emergency meeting with the band. They took us downstairs, we rehearsed, and from then on we killed. From then on, we played the Apollo almost three times a year. **Bob Abrahamian** 32:10 So how long was your first engagement at the Apollo? Was it just one day? **Maurice McAllister** 32:13 No, no. **Bob Abrahamian** 32:15 A week? **Wallace Sampson** 32:16 Five shows a day sometimes. **Bob Abrahamian** 32:20 So was the first day a disaster? **Maurice McAllister** 32:23 Yes, Lord. It was a disaster. It was a disaster. We didn't have anything but the record for the band, and they said, “We don't listen to records to learn. You're supposed to have charts—music.” So, like I said, we had to send back to Chess, and they hurried up and got us some charts. Gene Barge wrote the charts for us and had them express-shipped back to us. Then [unclear], at the Apollo, had a special meeting with the band so we could have another rehearsal and learn the music. Boy, that's what got us over. Once we got the music, we slayed. From then on, we were a very popular group in New York. **Bob Abrahamian** 33:02 What about your clothes? Since that was one of your first shows, did you get suits? Did they set you up with nice suits? **Maurice McAllister** 33:11 Oh yeah, yeah. Stayed clean now. **Wallace Sampson** 33:14 Those groups had to dress. **Maurice McAllister** 33:16 You had to dress. **Bob Abrahamian** 33:18 So did Chess set you up with suits? **Maurice McAllister** 33:22 Yeah, they paid. **Bob Abrahamian** 33:24 What about steps? Did you initially have a choreographer, or what did you do? **Maurice McAllister** 33:29 I did most of the steps, but we— **Wallace Sampson** 33:30 Collectively, we would come together. An idea here, an idea there. **Maurice McAllister** 33:38 He was in charge of the steps. **Bob Abrahamian** 33:39 Because I've seen you on _The Beat_, and you guys were pretty sharp on that. But I imagine on your very first show you probably didn't have it together. So by the end of the week, how were you doing? **Wallace Sampson** 33:57 Okay. **Bob Abrahamian** 33:59 Well, that must have been a scary experience initially. **Maurice McAllister** 34:02 Can you imagine? All those people at the Apollo—the world-famous Apollo—and they're hollering, “Get off the stage! Y'all ain't the same group!” Oh, man. **Bob Abrahamian** 34:11 Did you get your voice back by the end of the week? **Maurice McAllister** 34:14 Oh yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 34:14 Okay, so they weren't saying that by the end of the week. **Maurice McAllister** 34:16 Oh no. **Wallace Sampson** 34:17 But guess who else was hoarse? Marvin Gaye. **Maurice McAllister** 34:19 Yeah, he was too. **Bob Abrahamian** 34:23 So he was on the same show? **Maurice McAllister** 34:25 He was on the same show. **Bob Abrahamian** 34:28 The Marvelettes were on the show? **Maurice McAllister** 34:30 The Marvelettes, yeah. **Wallace Sampson** 34:31 “Baby” Cortez. **Bob Abrahamian** 34:33 So you were right in the middle—you were featured in the show? **Wallace Sampson** 34:37 Yeah, yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 34:38 So your record must have gotten play in New York then, too. **Maurice McAllister** 34:41 We were always a top hit in New York. Anything we ever put out. **Bob Abrahamian** 34:45 So that gets back to the next record Chess put out on you, which was another one of my favorite records you did, “Heartbreak Society.” What a great record! **Maurice McAllister** 34:58 Great record! **Bob Abrahamian** 35:00 So what's the story behind “Heartbreak Society”? That's such a well-written song. What's the story? **Maurice McAllister** 35:09 “Heartbreak Society,” yeah. What was I talking about? I'm trying to think. Oh, I think I wrote that because the girl that I eventually married—we had a spat. You know how you break up and then get back together later on. We had temporarily broken up, so I wrote that song for her, really. **Bob Abrahamian** 35:37 Okay, well, let me play the record and we can talk some more. This is the Radiants with their second record, from 1963. One of my very favorite records they did. This is called “Heartbreak Society.” **[music playing — “Heartbreak Society” by the Radiants]** 36:07 **Bob Abrahamian** 38:26 Okay, you're tuned to WHPK 88.5 FM in Chicago. That was the Radiants with the second record they officially released on Chess Records. That was an awesome track called “Heartbreak Society.” If you're just tuning in, I'm honored to have members of the Radiants, Wallace Sampson and Maurice McAllister—who sings lead on that record—up here in the studio. So that record, as you were just talking about, is based on a true story, and you wrote that song also, right? And one thing: around that time, were you starting to do backup vocals for other groups at Chess? **Maurice McAllister** 39:17 Other people, yes. **Bob Abrahamian** 39:18 Had you started doing that already, or was it a little bit after that? **Maurice McAllister** 39:26 I think that was the second song we put out, right? **Wallace Sampson** 39:31 Yeah. **Maurice McAllister** 39:32 Right. So a little bit after that, we would do it. Well, me, I was at Chess 24/7. I was down there every day because I wrote for other artists and things like that. So I was down there every day. **Bob Abrahamian** 39:49 So you became a writer at Chess also. Did you quit your day job at that point? **Maurice McAllister** 39:55 What day job? I didn't have no day job! **Bob Abrahamian** 39:59 Okay. You started working at Chess, you're saying. So at that point, you were working at Chess, you started writing for other artists, and you were in the studio all the time. **Maurice McAllister** 40:12 Yeah. Chess had their own pressing plant, around 70th and Wentworth. They pressed their own records. **Bob Abrahamian** 40:31 Okay. **Maurice McAllister** 40:32 And so I worked there. I got a job pressing records. I'd actually write a record, then get on the press and actually press the records. I learned to do that. Since I didn't have a job, Chess sent me to their record plant, and I worked at the record plant. **Bob Abrahamian** 40:51 That's interesting. So you actually ran the record press? **Maurice McAllister** 40:54 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 40:58 So you actually loaded the material into the press and pressed the records? **Maurice McAllister** 41:01 Oh yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 41:08 That's interesting to me just because I'm a record collector, so I like hearing about record pressing. **Maurice McAllister** 41:11 Pressed the records, right. **Bob Abrahamian** 41:12 So when they put out a hit, you'd have to press a thousand copies of a record or something like that? **Maurice McAllister** 41:20 Oh yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 41:21 Did you ever have to press, like, five copies of a record? **Maurice McAllister** 41:25 Yeah, demos. We did that. **Bob Abrahamian** 41:29 So you did sometimes press very few copies? **Maurice McAllister** 41:30 Right. Whatever the order was, whatever they wanted. Whoever had a contract with the plant to press records—maybe they sold so many records that week and wanted so many more. That's where they'd press them. **Bob Abrahamian** 41:45 So sometimes they'd order only a few, or tell you to press only ten records? **Maurice McAllister** 41:51 It's possible, right. **Bob Abrahamian** 41:52 That's interesting that they could press that few. **Maurice McAllister** 41:54 They did the whole thing. They made the dies to press the records. A fellow would come in, take it upstairs, the engineer would play it, and they'd put the music onto that metal piece. Then you'd take it downstairs, put the plastic on there, drop the top down, hit the buttons, put the steam on there—you've got a record. They did the whole thing. They cut the dies and everything at the plant. It was around 70th and Wentworth. **Bob Abrahamian** 42:29 And did Chess press records for other people too, not just Chess? **Maurice McAllister** 42:32 Yes. **Bob Abrahamian** 42:33 That's cool. **Maurice McAllister** 42:34 Yeah. A bunch of small companies. Big companies like Paramount or ABC had their own sources. But if you were a small independent record company, Chess had that sewn up all over the Chicago area and in other nearby cities. They had contracts to press all those records. **Bob Abrahamian** 42:55 Did the Chess pressing plant have a name, or was it just called the Chess Record Plant? I heard—wasn't it called Summit? **Maurice McAllister** 43:04 I'm trying to think. No, I don't remember Summit. It wasn't called Chess, though. Aristocrat, I think, was one of the names. Later on, when Chess bought that big building— **Bob Abrahamian** 43:21 On Michigan? **Maurice McAllister** 43:23 No, they were always on 21st and Michigan. They bought another big building over east, around where 22nd Street curves off King Drive. Chess bought that whole big building. If you see it right now, the Chess logo is right on top of that building. WVON is on top of the building. Chess bought the whole building. They moved the pressing plant and everything—the recording studios and everything—into that one building. **Bob Abrahamian** 43:57 Okay. That's really interesting. It's probably not interesting to anyone else, but it's interesting to me. **Maurice McAllister** 44:04 Driving by, you could look and see WVON. That was Chess's actual building, because Chess owned WVON also. **Bob Abrahamian** 44:12 Yeah. Okay, that's cool. So the lineup on “Heartbreak Society” was the same as on “Father Knows Best,” is that right? The next record they released, I think, was “Shy Guy” and “I'm in Love.” Is that right? **Maurice McAllister** 44:28 Yes. **Bob Abrahamian** 44:29 I looked up a webpage on the Internet that lists your records, and it lists the lineup as having a Frank McCollum instead of Green McLaurin. Is that right? **Maurice McAllister** 44:43 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 44:45 So what happened? **Maurice McAllister** 44:46 Green went—he was drafted. He was in the Army. **Bob Abrahamian** 44:49 So he was still pretty young, and he got drafted. **Maurice McAllister** 44:52 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 44:53 So who was Frank McCollum, and how did you know him? **Wallace Sampson** 45:01 Through Reynard Miner. **Maurice McAllister** 45:06 Reynard was a big writer. Reynard Miner was a very prolific writer for Chess. He wrote bunches of them. I can't even name all of them. **Bob Abrahamian** 45:20 He wrote “Rescue Me,” right? **Maurice McAllister** 45:22 Yeah. Frank McCollum was a friend of his. **Bob Abrahamian** 45:27 So he brought Frank into the group? **Maurice McAllister** 45:31 Well, he brought Frank to us. **Wallace Sampson** 45:33 To audition. **Bob Abrahamian** 45:34 Okay. And so you released “Shy Guy.” Around that time, were you doing a lot more touring also? You were touring all the time. You said you were doing the Apollo several times a year. **Maurice McAllister** 45:47 Oh yeah. We had a steady gig there. **Bob Abrahamian** 45:49 What were some of the other places you were touring? **Maurice McAllister** 45:51 We did the Chitlin' Circuit. Do you know what that is? **Bob Abrahamian** 45:54 Yeah, like the small clubs around town? **Maurice McAllister** 45:57 No, no. The Chitlin' Circuit was all the theaters: the Howard Theatre in Washington, the Royal Theatre in Baltimore, the Regal Theater in Chicago, the Apollo Theater in New York, and—what was it in Philadelphia? **Wallace Sampson** 46:13 The Uptown? **Maurice McAllister** 46:14 Yeah, the Uptown. That was called the Chitlin' Circuit. You played all the main theaters. By the time you finished making the circuit, it'd almost be time to start the circuit all over again. In the meantime, you'd do gigs in other places. But the Chitlin' Circuit—we'd do that almost three times a year. **Bob Abrahamian** 46:37 Okay, so you were touring all the time. How much of the year were you touring? **Maurice McAllister** 46:45 We did quite a bit. It wasn't continuous, like we never got home. We'd stay home maybe a month, two months at the most, and then we'd go out again for a week's engagement or two weeks or something like that. **Bob Abrahamian** 47:01 Okay. And then the next record Chess released on you was “I Gotta Dance to Keep My Baby” and “Noble the Bargain Man.” You started laughing. Is there a story behind “Noble the Bargain Man”? **Wallace Sampson** 47:22 Yeah. Actually, it was written from seeing a guy selling things out of a shopping bag, walking down the street. **Maurice McAllister** 47:31 Yeah. In my neighborhood there were peddlers. They'd go from door to door. Back in the day, after the war and things like that, fellows would come through the neighborhood, come to your house, open up their shopping bag and ask, “Do you want this?”—selling stuff. That's what I wrote “Noble the Bargain Man” about. **Bob Abrahamian** 48:01 They still have those guys in my neighborhood. **Maurice McAllister** 48:04 Right. You know what I'm talking about. That's why I wrote “Noble the Bargain Man.” **Bob Abrahamian** 48:10 Was there actually a dude named Noble in your neighborhood? **Maurice McAllister** 48:18 No, we named him Noble for the record. He'd say, “What do you want to buy? Got everything you want. It's just your size.” But: “Just keep a-walking right on by, 'cause he's a shuck and a jive. Watch for Noble, the bargain man, trying to sell you anything he can.” That's what I wrote about Noble. Noble had bargains, but watch those bargains—there was a trick to them. **Bob Abrahamian** 48:43 And the lineup on that was pretty much the same? **Maurice McAllister** 48:45 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 48:46 Okay. So then the next record you released ended up being pretty much your biggest hit, which was “Voice Your Choice.” **Maurice McAllister** 48:55 Well, by that time the group had changed. It was just Wallace, myself, and Leonard Caston filled in with us. **Bob Abrahamian** 49:07 So what happened? Why did the lineup change? **Maurice McAllister** 49:09 It was a thing with Elzy and Jerome. They would wear our stage clothes out. Those were the impressive clothes, you know, the clean clothes. The outfits we wore were for stage use only. If you're wearing them around in the street, they won't be any good anymore. I kept having a problem with them doing that—wearing the outfits around and things like that. **Bob Abrahamian** 49:41 They'd get the clothes ratty, right? **Maurice McAllister** 49:43 That's what I'm saying. They were for stage purposes only. So I had a thing with both Elzy and Jerome. They were running partners, so to speak. Just like Wallace and I came up together, Elzy and Jerome came up together. **Wallace Sampson** 49:59 Groups have misunderstandings and disagreements, you know. Sometimes it comes to the point where somebody leaves. That's what it was. **Bob Abrahamian** 50:12 So there was just some internal dispute in the group. **Wallace Sampson** 50:14 An internal dispute. **Bob Abrahamian** 50:16 So then the group ended up being Maurice and you, and then Leonard Caston. You said he was the pianist back in your choir, right? How did you bring him into the group? Was he working at Chess at the time? **Maurice McAllister** 50:33 No, but he had been discharged. **Wallace Sampson** 50:37 He got discharged about that time. **Maurice McAllister** 50:47 Green, our first tenor, went into the Army, and Leonard was discharged around the same time. So when one went, we replaced him with the other. **Bob Abrahamian** 50:55 So then that became kind of the classic lineup on “Voice Your Choice.” A few members left because of the dispute, leaving you two, and Leonard Caston came out of the Army. You knew him from your church choir and brought him in. And then he became the singer on “Voice Your Choice,” which I want to play. I'm trying to think if I should because I don't want to run out of time for the interview. I'll play it because it's two minutes. It's such a classic record. What could a Radiants interview be without playing this record? **Wallace Sampson** 51:43 Oh yeah. That's the record. **Bob Abrahamian** 51:45 So this is the Radiants with “Voice Your Choice.” **[music playing — “Voice Your Choice” by the Radiants]** 51:45 **Bob Abrahamian** 54:21 Okay, that was just one of the greatest Chicago soul records of all time, the Radiants with “Voice Your Choice.” If you're just tuning in, I have two members of the Radiants—two of the three Radiants who sing on that record—Maurice McAllister and Wallace Sampson, up here in the studio telling their story. That was actually the first record you released that charted nationally on the R&B charts. I think some records you released earlier charted pop, but that record was a Top 20 R&B hit. I have the _Billboard_ book here—it charted all the way up to number 16 in January 1965. **Maurice McAllister** 55:08 Oh yeah. Brought some nice money. We worked off of that for quite a while. **Bob Abrahamian** 55:13 You were telling me there's a story behind that song too. What's the story behind it? **Maurice McAllister** 55:17 Actually, Gerald Sims came up with the track, and he gave me the idea. I was thinking of a song called “Voice Your Choice,” and he gave me the track, and I wrote the lyrics to it. While I was doing it, I was thinking about the lady I married. I always had somebody in mind when I'd write a song about a lady. There was always somebody in mind. So I wrote that about her. She was so cute. She thought she was—you know—Miss It. **Bob Abrahamian** 55:58 So was she— **Maurice McAllister** 56:00 Everybody was chasing behind her. Then here come me. **Bob Abrahamian** 56:04 So she had— **Maurice McAllister** 56:05 Last but not least, like I say. **Bob Abrahamian** 56:07 So there were a few guys she had to pick from, and you were one of them? **Maurice McAllister** 56:11 So to speak. **Bob Abrahamian** 56:13 And you did that song on one of the classic soul performances—you did it on _The Beat_. Everybody on YouTube looking for soul performances has probably seen you guys do that. The steps you do on that show are pretty cool. You're waving your hands and snapping up in the air. **Wallace Sampson** 56:40 The Temptation walk and a little jig. **Maurice McAllister** 56:44 A combination of the two. **Wallace Sampson** 56:45 A combination of steps and spins, dips, coming back up. **Bob Abrahamian** 56:50 So Wallace, did you come up with those steps? **Wallace Sampson** 56:56 Maurice and Leonard came up with some real good dips, those dips coming down. **Maurice McAllister** 57:09 Wallace was primarily the choreographer for the group. We might see something and throw it in to help him, but he was primarily the choreographer. The steps were mostly his inventions. **Bob Abrahamian** 57:18 That was awesome that you got onto that show. It was one of the most legendary soul shows of the '60s, and it was in color too, which is rare for a '60s show. **Maurice McAllister** 57:31 You didn't see the whole thing, did you? We did three songs. **Bob Abrahamian** 57:35 I've seen the other two songs too. I'm trying to remember one of them. **Wallace Sampson** 57:54 We did the Impressions' “You've Been Cheatin'.” **Bob Abrahamian** 57:57 I haven't seen that one. **Maurice McAllister** 57:58 No, no, no. Remember, I dove on the floor? **Wallace Sampson** 58:03 That was “Shotgun.” **Maurice McAllister** 58:05 “Shotgun,” Junior Walker. Have you seen that? **Bob Abrahamian** 58:09 No. They must not have released that footage. **Maurice McAllister** 58:15 We get down and we're shooting the shotgun, and I dive across the floor and crawl on the floor and come back up. **Bob Abrahamian** 58:23 They released a DVD of that stuff. Is “Shotgun” on that? Do you know? **Wallace Sampson** 58:27 [unclear] **Bob Abrahamian** 58:31 I'll have to look out for that. You guys are awesome on that show. Did you do any other TV performances besides that show? **Maurice McAllister** 58:40 Oh yeah. I'm trying to think of the names. We did some in Cleveland, New York— **Wallace Sampson** 58:49 Ontario, Canada. We did Channel 11. I cannot remember where we could write to get some footage. **Bob Abrahamian** 59:03 They probably don't have the footage. Most footage of TV shows that happened back in the day doesn't exist, because videotapes either didn't exist yet or were so expensive that they'd have to actually film the show, and that was expensive. Most of it went out live and wasn't recorded. A lot of people ask me, “How can I get videotape of my performance on this TV show?” And I'm like, “It probably doesn't even exist.” So you're lucky the _Beat_ footage exists. That's still awesome because it's so classic. But “Voice Your Choice” was your big national hit. Did you start doing even more touring off that song? **Wallace Sampson** 1:00:08 Mostly, yeah. Oh yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:00:14 Did you start doing different types of clubs—even bigger clubs? **Maurice McAllister** 1:00:17 Oh yeah. Detroit, Cleveland. We went on tour with the Motown Revue. Went through the South. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:00:36 Did the dynamics of your show change at all because you had three members instead of five? **Wallace Sampson** 1:00:42 No. Because of the way the songs were vocally arranged, it was much easier, really. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:00:51 The next song you did—which I'd also like to play, but I'm not going to because I don't want to run out of interview time—is also one of the greatest Chicago soul records of all time: “It Ain't No Big Thing.” Classic, classic record. I think it's one of the most covered soul records of all time. Gerald Sims has writing credits on there too, but you were telling me you helped write that record. **Maurice McAllister** 1:01:18 And we arranged it. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:01:20 What a great song. **Maurice McAllister** 1:01:22 He actually came up with the idea, and I mostly finished writing the lyrics to it. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:01:28 You probably don't know this, but that song became a favorite of garage groups—white garage groups—to cover. Not just beach-music groups, but in Texas, lots of Hispanic groups covered it. **Maurice McAllister** 1:01:53 We stayed down in Texas. We'd go down and play Texas two, three, maybe three or four times a year. Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston—all those areas. We stayed down there. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:02:10 Was there a story behind “It Ain't No Big Thing”? Was it another breakup song where some girl dumped you and you're like, “It ain't no big thing”? **Maurice McAllister** 1:02:16 So to speak. Gerald Sims came up with the idea, and he'd come up with ideas and I'd mostly finish the lyrics on them. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:02:27 Gerald Sims had a group called the Daylighters. **Maurice McAllister** 1:02:31 The Daylighters, yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:02:32 But I heard that wasn't officially his group—that they just brought him in to sing on the record. **Maurice McAllister** 1:02:39 Gerald was a heck of a guitar player. He had some bad licks. Just like Curtis Mayfield—you knew when he was on the session because he had his own licks. Gerald was the same way. He had his own guitar style. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:02:52 Okay. On that song, is it the same three guys singing? **Maurice McAllister** 1:02:58 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:02:59 Then the next record you put out was “Whole Lot of Woman” and “Tomorrow.” Same three guys? **Maurice McAllister** 1:03:06 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:03:06 Then the next record I have is “Baby, You've Got It” and “I Want to Thank You, Baby.” **Maurice McAllister** 1:03:17 That was during the transition time. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:03:21 The website I have lists Maurice McAllister, Wallace Sampson, and James Jamerson. Did Leonard Caston leave the group? **Wallace Sampson** 1:03:27 Yes. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:03:28 Why? **Wallace Sampson** 1:03:30 He went to Motown. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:03:31 Leonard was a heck of an organist, piano player, and songwriter. Did Motown recruit him? What happened? **Wallace Sampson** 1:03:39 Since he was a writer and a musician, he thought he'd have a better place at Motown. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:03:49 So who was James Jamerson? He replaced Leonard? **Wallace Sampson** 1:03:58 I mostly knew James. We had met around a nightclub at 69th—[unclear venue]. That's how I met James. I'd known him for a few years. He would come around and show his songs. I told him, “Look, why don't you come down to Chess? Leonard is leaving. Why don't you come down and audition with Maurice and myself?” He came down, and he had that— **Maurice McAllister** 1:04:35 That high— **Wallace Sampson** 1:04:38 First tenor. **Maurice McAllister** 1:04:38 First tenor. He fit right in. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:04:40 Okay. Then something strange happened with the next record, “Don't It Make You Feel Kind of Bad.” There's a weird story behind this record. The story is that you, Maurice, were actually leaving the Radiants. Is that right? Why were you leaving the group? **Maurice McAllister** 1:05:36 Because Green McLaurin had just gotten out of the military. Remember, he was the first tenor in the group when we first started. And Green—hey, Green had some pipes. Green could sing. Sam & Dave and that soul thing was going at the time. Billy Davis thought Green and I could do that kind of thing. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:06:04 Actually, the song is on the CD. Let me play the track, and then we'll talk about it. I want to see if I can get Mitch on the phone one last time too. So this is “Don't It Make You Feel Kind of Bad.” **[music playing — “Don't It Make You Feel Kind of Bad”]** 1:06:39 **Bob Abrahamian** 1:09:26 Okay, you're tuned to WHPK 88.5 FM in Chicago. You're listening to an interview I'm doing with members of the Radiants. I have Maurice McAllister and Wallace Sampson up in the studio. The record I just played was released as the Radiants with “Don't It Make You Feel Kind of Bad,” and you're about to hear the story about how that record is actually not the Radiants. Maurice was just telling the story about Green McLaurin getting out of the military. You were saying you wanted to get with him and sing. **Maurice McAllister** 1:10:11 Yeah. Because the soul thing was real popular, like Sam & Dave and Otis Redding. All that Southern-type soul was real hot at the time. Mac and I—that was our forte. That's the kind of thing we liked to sing. **Wallace Sampson** 1:10:38 The Sam & Dave type of thing. **Maurice McAllister** 1:10:39 Right. So I was leaving to get with Mac, and I was going to do a duet. That left them without a lead. **Maurice McAllister** 1:10:52 And it happened at the same time Mitchell didn't have a group. Boom. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:10:57 So Mitchell you're talking about is Mitchell Bullock, right? Mitchell—who unfortunately we couldn't get on the phone—was in a group called the Confessions at the time. The Confessions were a group at Chess Records, and Chess had recorded “Don't It Make You Feel Kind of Bad” and “Anything You Do Is All Right.” So you guys don't sing on either side? **Wallace Sampson** 1:11:27 “Anything You Do Is All Right” is actually the Radiants. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:11:32 So the Radiants sing on that? **Wallace Sampson** 1:11:34 But the Confessions are on “Don't It Make You Feel Kind of Bad.” Mitch didn't have a background group, so Billy Davis said, “We're going to have you be with the Radiants.” **Bob Abrahamian** 1:11:50 Okay. **Wallace Sampson** 1:11:52 That's the way it was. **Maurice McAllister** 1:11:53 Mac and I had it together. It wasn't no problem. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:11:56 So Mitch was in the Confessions, and they had “Don't It Make You Feel Kind of Bad” in the can. None of you sing on “Don't It Make You Feel Kind of Bad” at all? **Wallace Sampson** 1:12:08 No, no. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:12:08 But you do sing on “Anything You Do Is All Right.” I talked to a record collector, and apparently there's an earlier Confessions record. He told me it's called “Things Are Not the Same” and “Great Big Lover,” on a label called Down. I had him look at the publishing, and the publishing is Chevis Music, which is Chess's publishing. It's written by Carl Smith, whom Mitchell remembered working with. Mitchell isn't here, unfortunately, to tell the story, but he said he and the Confessions were from the West Side. **Maurice McAllister** 1:12:48 Right. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:12:49 So they were a West Side group coming together with your group from the South Side. On “Anything You Do Is All Right,” Mitchell sings lead. Who are the rest of the Radiants? **Maurice McAllister** 1:13:06 James, Wallace, and Victor. Leonard Caston's brother Victor became the fourth member of the Radiants when Mitchell took over the lead. **Wallace Sampson** 1:13:24 Mitchell, Wallace, James, and Victor. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:13:31 Okay. So on one side it's the Confessions, and on the flip it's Mitchell, Wallace, Victor, and James Jamerson. **Wallace Sampson** 1:13:45 New lineup. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:13:46 I'm glad we got that story. That's a complicated story. Maurice, before you started cutting as Maurice & Mac, you cut one solo record called “Baby, Hang On” and “I'd Rather Do It Myself.” Whose idea was it to do that solo record? **Maurice McAllister** 1:14:16 Chess. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:14:17 Chess wanted to try you out as a solo artist? **Maurice McAllister** 1:14:20 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:14:21 Did you like that record? **Maurice McAllister** 1:14:24 Oh, I didn't like the record. I didn't want to do it. That was a Billy Davis idea. Since it was coming out of his publishing, he might as well use the song to pick up a few pennies. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:14:37 Okay. Then the next Radiants record that got released is, in my opinion, the most underrated Radiants record because the song is so good. It's called “The Clown Is Clever.” I love that song. People sleep on that song. That's Mitch, Wallace, James, and Victor Caston, and Mitch sings the lead. Who wrote it? **Maurice McAllister** 1:15:03 Kermit— **Wallace Sampson** 1:15:05 Kermit. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:15:08 Kermit Chandler. **Wallace Sampson** 1:15:16 And Charles Stepney did the arrangement. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:15:18 That's an awesome record. It's too bad they didn't promote it. I think it may have been a B-side, and that's why it didn't get played. Then they finally started releasing Maurice & Mac records on you and Green. The first one they released was “So Much Love” and “Try Me.” But the big hit was the second record, “You Left the Water Running.” **Maurice McAllister** 1:15:45 They sent us down to the old country to record—Muscle Shoals, Alabama. Everything we did as Maurice & Mac was cut in Muscle Shoals. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:15:58 “You Left the Water Running” was done by a lot of Southern soul artists. **Maurice McAllister** 1:16:02 Yes, it was. Otis Redding and a whole bunch of folks did it. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:16:06 I think Irma Thomas did it. Do you know who had the biggest version? Was yours the biggest version? **Maurice McAllister** 1:16:14 I think we had the biggest version, yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:16:16 Did Maurice & Mac tour also? **Maurice McAllister** 1:16:19 Oh yeah. Made cash money. **Wallace Sampson** 1:16:23 The Radiants ran across Maurice & Mac up in Washington. That was really the first time we'd been on the road together since then, and we ran into each other. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:16:37 Did you leave on good terms? Were you all still friends? **Maurice McAllister** 1:16:43 Oh yeah. No problem. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:16:45 When you left, you switched up your style and went Southern soul. Did your act change? **Maurice McAllister** 1:16:52 Yeah. We had Southern soul. We'd hoop and holler—we'd have church onstage, Mac and I. We had a ball. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:17:02 And then the next Radiants record was one of your biggest hits. It was “Hold On.” **Wallace Sampson** 1:17:08 “Hold On.” **Bob Abrahamian** 1:17:08 Yeah. I actually always play the flip, “I'm Glad I'm the Loser.” I love that song. That was one of the first 45s I ever bought. When I started buying records, it was one of the first ones I ever found, and I played that side over and over again. Then one of the last Radiants 45s after that was “Tears of a Clown” and “I'm Just a Man.” **Wallace Sampson** 1:17:37 “I'm Just a Man.” **Bob Abrahamian** 1:17:38 Then they released a couple more Maurice & Mac records. The next Radiants record that came out was “Choo Choo” and “Ida Mae Foster.” I really like the “Ida Mae Foster” side. That's a nice record. Did you write that? **Maurice McAllister** 1:17:52 Bobby Miller wrote it. **Wallace Sampson** 1:17:57 Maurice was singing with us on “Ida Mae Foster.” **Bob Abrahamian** 1:18:01 Okay. So Maurice, you came back and added extra vocals. So on “Ida Mae Foster,” the lineup is Mitchell Bullock, Wallace Sampson, James Jamerson, Victor Caston, and Maurice? **Wallace Sampson** 1:18:21 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:18:21 You're just in the background, though. You're not singing lead. So there are five members. You were kind of hanging around Chess? **Maurice McAllister** 1:18:28 Not hanging around. I was writing for other people. I was actually getting paid. I worked at Chess. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:18:38 Can we talk about some of the other artists you wrote for? **Maurice McAllister** 1:18:43 Sugar Pie DeSanto, Etta James. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:18:49 What Sugar Pie DeSanto record do you remember writing? **Maurice McAllister** 1:18:52 “Soulful Dress.” **Bob Abrahamian** 1:18:53 That's a great song. **Maurice McAllister** 1:18:54 Yeah, I wrote that for her. Etta James, I wrote—oh, what the devil? I can't think of it right now. “Only Time Will Tell.” I wrote it, but I couldn't remember it! **Wallace Sampson** 1:19:21 That was in that movie. **Maurice McAllister** 1:19:22 Yeah, it was in the movie _Angel Eyes_. They're still playing that somewhere. I like that. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:19:32 Another thing is that the Radiants backed a lot of other artists. You guys were basically the backing group on a ton of Chess records, and you've never really been recognized as the backing group. You backed a ton of Billy Stewart records. You're the group singing on “Sitting in the Park,” right? **Maurice McAllister** 1:19:55 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:19:56 Which other songs on this CD do you sing backup on? **Wallace Sampson** 1:20:04 On some records, when it wasn't specifically the Radiants, Maurice did a lot of the vocals because he was down at Chess a lot. But when all three of us were available and down at Chess, they'd just get the trio. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:20:33 Okay. **Wallace Sampson** 1:20:34 “How Nice It Is,” I know for a fact that's one we did with Billy Stewart. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:20:40 Do you sing backup on “I'm in Love”? **Wallace Sampson** 1:20:44 Maurice and Leonard—“How Nice It Is.” **Maurice McAllister** 1:20:47 Yeah, “How Nice It Is.” **Wallace Sampson** 1:20:49 We did that background. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:20:53 What about “I'm in Love (Oh Yes I Am)”? Do you sing backup on that? **Wallace Sampson** 1:20:58 It might have been Maurice and Leonard down at the studio. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:21:06 And another one I wrote down is “A Fat Boy Can Cry.” Another record you sing backup on—by a Detroit artist but with a classic Chicago sound—is Tony Clarke's “The Entertainer.” **Wallace Sampson** 1:21:22 That was the Radiants on both sides of the record. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:21:26 Right. He had a group called the Celebrities, which was his backing group on tour, but you guys definitely sing on the record. **Maurice McAllister** 1:21:35 Right. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:21:36 You guys cut a few more records on Checker. I think the last record you released was called “Book of Love” and “Another Mule Is Kicking in Your Stall.” **Wallace Sampson** 1:21:51 “Another Mule”—I can't stand that song! **Maurice McAllister** 1:21:55 I think that's the one I wrote. **Wallace Sampson** 1:21:57 No, I don't— **Maurice McAllister** 1:22:00 I believe I wrote that one. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:22:02 There's one record listed in the discographies called “Shadow of a Doubt” as your last record, but I've never seen it. **Wallace Sampson** 1:22:08 That's what they call “in the can.” I don't think it exists. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:22:12 In the can—you're saying it was never pressed? **Wallace Sampson** 1:22:16 “Shadow of a Doubt,” yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:22:18 Was it a good song? **Wallace Sampson** 1:22:19 Beautiful song. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:22:20 Too bad. I'd love to hear it. I don't think it ever came out. **Wallace Sampson** 1:22:24 Leonard Caston wrote it and produced it. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:22:27 I hope I hear it someday because it's listed with a number, but I don't think it got pressed. **Wallace Sampson** 1:22:32 No, it didn't get pressed. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:22:33 I think we're pretty much out of time, but I appreciate you coming down and telling your story because you guys have an awesome story that spans a lot of Chicago history. You even sang on records by more obscure artists. Johnny Twist, who has a store around Cottage Grove and 63rd, said you sang on his Checker record. I'm sure there are a lot more obscure Chicago artists whose Chess and Checker records you sang on—probably too many to list. Probably anybody who was in the Chess/Checker studio, you were singing on their records. **Wallace Sampson** 1:23:13 Sometimes we'd go down there just to do hand clapping. **Maurice McAllister** 1:23:15 That's right. Sometimes that's all we'd do—hand claps. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:23:24 Okay. I guess we have time for a couple more records. But actually, I have to ask one more question. You went to one more label after Chess Records. You went to Twilight Records. What's the story with that? How did you get to Twilight Records? **Wallace Sampson** 1:23:52 Syl Johnson. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:23:54 Okay. **Wallace Sampson** 1:23:54 Syl Johnson wanted the Radiants. He also wanted Maurice to be with us in the studio, so that's what happened. **Wallace Sampson** 1:24:09 Syl Johnson produced those two songs. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:24:13 Why'd you leave Chess Records? **Wallace Sampson** 1:24:15 We left Chess because— **Maurice McAllister** 1:24:21 They didn't want to put anything into it, and Chess was really getting ready to close up, quit the business. They'd made all their money all those years. They'd been in business since the '50s. That's what we believed was happening. I know they were getting ready to shut down. Then when [unclear] died, that was it. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:24:51 Okay. So Chess was going out of business, Syl Johnson took you to Twilight, you cut one record, and you were back in the group. What's the lineup on the Twilight record? **Wallace Sampson** 1:25:03 The Twilight lineup is Mitchell Bullock, James Jamerson, Maurice McAllister, and myself. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:25:11 Okay. And the Twilight record was a nice record called “Sunshine Girl.” It didn't really get any play in Chicago. Then did the group break up after that? **Wallace Sampson** 1:25:29 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:25:30 Pretty much because you'd been in the business so long, and you went and focused on your careers? **Wallace Sampson** 1:25:35 Right. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:25:37 Has either of you done any other music stuff since then? **Wallace Sampson** 1:25:43 I did some gospel. Produced, wrote. Still trying to get some of it out there. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:25:53 So you're still recording, actually? **Wallace Sampson** 1:25:54 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:25:56 So what are you doing now? **Wallace Sampson** 1:25:59 I'm doing a project with Victor. It's a song that I wrote, and he and his son are doing the music to it. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:26:15 Okay. **Wallace Sampson** 1:26:15 Yeah. So, you know, dibbling and dabbling here and there. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:26:19 So where can people look for it when it comes out? **Wallace Sampson** 1:26:22 Hopefully this year. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:26:25 So just look for it on the Internet, pretty much? **Wallace Sampson** 1:26:28 Yeah. I'll put it on the Internet and I'll call you. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:26:31 Okay, I'll let people know about it. **Wallace Sampson** 1:26:32 Yeah. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:26:33 Well, thanks so much for coming down and telling your story. I really appreciate it. You guys told a great story, and you were so important in the history of Chicago music. I'm so glad I was able to get you on. I'm honored to have you guys on the show. **Wallace Sampson** 1:26:47 Appreciate it. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:26:48 Okay. Well, thanks again. It was awesome. **Maurice McAllister** 1:26:50 Thank you for having us. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:26:53 Thank you. **Wallace Sampson** 1:26:53 Love you. Thanks for having us. **Bob Abrahamian** 1:26:54 Thank you.