Bob Abrahamian 00:00
Okay, you're tuned to WHPK 88.5 FM in Chicago. You're listening to the Sitting in the Park show. Right now, I have on the line Charles Perry, member of the group The Naturals. Charles, can you hear me?
Charles Perry 00:09
Yes, I can.
Bob Abrahamian 00:11
Okay, cool. So we're going to be talking about the history of your group — you know, your story, the story of your group. Starting off, you guys are originally from Evanston, right?
Charles Perry 00:20
Yes — except for one member.
Bob Abrahamian 00:24
Okay, so first of all, the original name of the group wasn't The Naturals, right? It was The Duvals, correct? So how did you guys form?
Charles Perry 00:43
Well, I got out of the service in May of ’61, okay? And I started looking for guys. I wanted to form my own singing group.
Bob Abrahamian 00:50
So had you sung before then?
Charles Perry 00:53
Well, I started in church — here in Florida, where I am now.
Bob Abrahamian 00:59
Okay, and you're originally from Florida?
Charles Perry 01:01
Yes, Winter Park, Florida.
Bob Abrahamian 01:04
So how’d you end up in Chicago?
Charles Perry 01:06
Well, my mother said we were going to Evanston, Illinois, and that’s where we went. I didn’t have any choice in the matter.
Bob Abrahamian 01:13
So in Florida, though, you mainly just sang in church, right?
Charles Perry 01:16
Yeah.
Bob Abrahamian 01:18
But then when you got out of the service, you wanted to form like an R&B vocal group?
Charles Perry 01:21
Right. So we had the idea — as a member of The Duvals — at McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey.
Bob Abrahamian 01:30
So you're saying you formed The Duvals there?
Charles Perry 01:33
I didn’t form it. I was a member of a group called The Duvals.
Bob Abrahamian 01:36
So you were a member of another doo-wop group called The Duvals?
Charles Perry 01:39
Yeah — at the Air Force Base, McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey.
Bob Abrahamian 01:44
Did that group ever record anything?
Charles Perry 01:47
No, but I never really wanted to sing professionally until we did a talent show there in front of thousands of people. The applause we got that night — well, I have to tell you, I went out and got my first process. I wanted to be a singer once in my life, without my mother saying, “You have to do it.”
Bob Abrahamian 02:12
So pretty much, you got started — you got inspired to do it after being in a group when you were in the military?
Charles Perry 02:18
Right.
Bob Abrahamian 02:19
All right, so then you came to Evanston. How did you form the group?
Charles Perry 02:23
Well, I had known Arthur “Honeyman” Cox — okay, the teenager — and also Andrew Thomas, who was nicknamed “Goo.”
Bob Abrahamian 02:36
So you had lived in Evanston before you went into the service?
Charles Perry 02:40
Right. Yes — before I went into the service at 17. You know, like all kids, we’d hear doo-wop on the radio. Actually, going to Chicago was an eye-opener for me, because I hadn’t heard of any Black disc jockeys coming from Winter Park — Orlando, Florida. You know, it was all Randy’s Record Shop at night, coming out of Nashville. So it was either that or hearing songs by The Clovers, The Five Keys, and my favorite at the time — The Drifters. Clyde McPhatter.
Bob Abrahamian 03:18
Yeah. So, you came back from the service and you found these guys — Arthur Cox and Andrew Thomas. Had you gone to high school with them?
Charles Perry 03:26
Yeah.
Bob Abrahamian 03:27
What school had you guys gone to?
Charles Perry 03:29
Evanston Township.
Bob Abrahamian 03:30
Okay. So how’d you find the other members of the group?
Charles Perry 03:35
Well, by trial and error. People would say they could sing — who really couldn’t — or, you know, they just didn’t fit. So I kept searching and first tried out Joseph Woolridge — aka Jeevin Jones or “Bird Brain,” okay? I dropped him because he had a problem staying in key — wherever I put him at. Then I tried other members...
Bob Abrahamian 04:06
So Joseph Woolridge isn’t a member on the record?
Charles Perry 04:10
He is, yeah. I got him back. I just had to work with him longer and harder than anyone else, okay? He became first tenor, second tenor, and some baritone. And Carlton Black was the last member to officially join the group. Goo and I had to talk him into joining.
Bob Abrahamian 04:36
Okay, how did you know him?
Charles Perry 04:38
From our teenage years.
Bob Abrahamian 04:40
So you were all about the same age? Did you all go to Evanston Township?
Charles Perry 04:44
Yeah — all except for Carlton. He was two or three years younger.
Bob Abrahamian 04:49
So are all the members from Evanston? You mentioned one of the members wasn’t.
Charles Perry 04:52
Right — except for Charles Joseph, or Joseph Woolridge. He was from Benton Harbor, Michigan. I met him in the pool room on Church Street in Evanston.
Bob Abrahamian 05:00
He was living in Evanston at the time?
Charles Perry 05:02
Yeah — working in Evanston. And Carlton was the missing piece.
Bob Abrahamian 05:07
Yeah, probably everyone in Chicago would recognize his bass — especially on “Let Love Be True” and on The Drew-Vels' “Tell Him,” they probably—
Charles Perry 05:17
“Let Love Be True” — it was Goo singing bass and Carlton singing lead.
Bob Abrahamian 05:23
Okay yeah, that’s right. I’m sorry — well, then they’d recognize his voice — his lead voice. So you formed the group around what year?
Charles Perry 05:32
1961.
Bob Abrahamian 05:34
But you didn’t end up recording until a couple years later, is that right?
Charles Perry 05:37
No, believe it or not, as I said, I got out of the service in May of ’61, and we recorded approximately 15 or 16 months later.
Bob Abrahamian 05:50
So the record you recorded — one side was called “Cotton,” and the other side was called “What Am I?”
Charles Perry 05:57
Yeah, right. I wrote “Cotton” and sang lead on it. Actually, that was Carlton’s nickname at the time.
Bob Abrahamian 06:04
Oh, I didn’t know that.
Charles Perry 06:06
Yeah — he had this little funny dance he’d do over in the corner at parties. You know, it was kind of cute, kind of neat. So I came up with some lyrics and, ergo, “Cotton” was born.
Bob Abrahamian 06:25
So how did you get a recording contract? That record came out on Boss?
Charles Perry 06:31
Yeah. All the officials from Boss Records were from Evanston. One of them, the treasurer, had a nephew I went to school with. I believe his name was Lattimore. He told his uncle about us, and they invited us over to sing a few songs. Then they signed us.
Bob Abrahamian 07:09
Who owned the label?
Charles Perry 07:13
Mr. Lattimore, Bobby “Pee Wee” Robinson, and Donald Clay.
Bob Abrahamian 07:27
I think Bobby Robinson was involved with a label called Dee Dee, too?
Charles Perry 07:33
Right — that was part of the same label, I believe.
Bob Abrahamian 07:39
Let me play your first record, and then we’ll talk some more. This is The Duvals with “Cotton.” Then we’ll get back to your group’s story. Okay?
Charles Perry 07:45
Okay.
[music playing – “Cotton” by The Duvals]
Bob Abrahamian 10:00
Okay, that was just The Duvals with their very first record, “Cotton.” Right now I’m on the phone with Charles Perry, member of The Duvals and The Naturals. That record came out in ’62, right?
Charles Perry 10:43
Yeah.
Bob Abrahamian 10:44
That had more of an early R&B sound. Your later records had more of a soul feel. You said “Cotton” was actually a dance record?
Charles Perry 10:52
Yeah, named after Carlton. He had this little move — snapping his fingers, moving side to side, shuffling his feet. At the time, there were a lot of dances — the Watusi, Junkanoo, the Twist. I made up some lyrics and called it “The Cotton,” a dance after him.
Incidentally, Goo and I had to talk Carlton into joining the group. He only wanted to sit at the community center and play jazz.
Bob Abrahamian 11:25
So he had a background in piano and jazz?
Charles Perry 11:31
He just liked to sit at the piano and pick out some stuff. He never had any formal training. He was just naturally gifted.
Bob Abrahamian 11:41
Yeah, he definitely wrote a lot of songs for different people. Was “The Cotton” a dance that others actually did, or just Carlton?
Charles Perry 11:51
It was a local thing. People around Evanston did it, but nobody outside really knew it
Bob Abrahamian 12:07
Okay, so you had a little local Evanston dance there. You mentioned another group on the label earlier — The Squires — and that Perk “Percolator” Moses was in that group. You said you came in contact with them, right?
Charles Perry 12:24
That was mind-blowing. After Carlton joined the group, which was early ’62 — January or February — and we got contacted by Mr. Lattimore, we rehearsed in Pee Wee Robinson’s basement. I couldn’t believe that the guy I was standing in the same basement with was Perk “Moses” of the great Eldorados group. I mean, that was mind-blowing.
Bob Abrahamian 12:53
So, I know he had a record on the label called The Docks and Peanut Butter. Do you remember if yours came out before his?
Charles Perry 13:02
No, they recorded us first. And that was also mind-blowing, because I couldn’t believe they picked my group over his group. But they did. And “Cotton” was the song they chose as our A-side.
Bob Abrahamian 13:19
Yeah, that was definitely cool. So your group eventually changed its name — is that right?
Charles Perry 13:29
Right. There was an older bunch of guys I’d seen while I was still in high school in Evanston. They were called The Naturals. I knew who they were, but we weren’t close. I’d just seen them on stage a couple of times.
At the time, I thought — let’s honor these previous Evanstonians. I never asked anybody; I just said, “Let’s call ourselves The Naturals.” That was my idea.
Bob Abrahamian 14:01
So you took on the name The Naturals as a tribute to that earlier doo-wop group from Evanston?
Charles Perry 14:06
Absolutely.
Bob Abrahamian 14:08
But there were no common members — it was just a tribute, right?
Charles Perry 14:10
Not a one.
Bob Abrahamian 14:12
And your lineup never changed — it was always Joseph Woolridge, Arthur Cox, Andrew Thomas, Carlton Black, and Charles Perry?
Charles Perry 14:18
Absolutely.
Bob Abrahamian 14:21
So after the first record came out, did you do shows in Evanston?
Charles Perry 14:25
We did shows in Indiana, northern Illinois — the Chicagoland area.
Bob Abrahamian 14:41
So you traveled around locally?
Charles Perry 14:43
Yeah, we didn’t get paid — but it was good exposure. I pushed the guys really hard, believe it or not. We’d start on a song, and my rule was: if we goofed up, we went back to the beginning. We were going to do that song all the way through, without a mishap, before we moved on. Sometimes they wanted to beat me up for it, but I said, “If we do it right in practice, we’ll do it right on stage.” And we never had a miscue on stage — not one.
Bob Abrahamian 15:28
Did you have dance moves too?
Charles Perry 15:30
Oh yeah — and I was supposed to be the shy one!
Bob Abrahamian 15:36
Did you ever perform shows with any famous groups?
Charles Perry 15:46
Yeah. We opened for Gladys Knight & the Pips, The Five Dutones, The Ideals, Dionne Warwick, Ty Hunter, and Marvin Gaye.
Bob Abrahamian 16:11
Do you remember where that Marvin Gaye show was?
Charles Perry 16:14
Highland Park, Illinois.
Bob Abrahamian 16:16
Did “Cotton” get radio play?
Charles Perry 16:19
Yeah. They played it down in St. Louis and other places in the Midwest.
Bob Abrahamian 16:25
So that was your only record on Boss, and then you signed to Smash, which was a division of Mercury?
Charles Perry 16:33
Yeah.
Bob Abrahamian 16:35
So what happened — did Boss fold?
Charles Perry 16:38
Yeah. Donald Clay left with all the money.
Bob Abrahamian 16:42
How did you end up getting a contract with Smash Records?
Charles Perry 16:51
The Drews — Patty Drew and her sisters — their mother worked for a guy on the North Shore. His name was Maurie Lasho. He had heard about the girls singing spirituals and wanted to record them. Somehow, he found out about us and liked us too. But he didn’t want the girls doing spirituals — he wanted secular music.
Myself, Goo, and Carlton had to talk to Mr. and Mrs. Drew. They finally said, “Okay, one song — but after that, it’s gotta be spirituals.” So they signed us both — The Drew-Vels and The Naturals.
Bob Abrahamian 17:47
But The Drew-Vels didn’t record on Smash — they ended up on Capitol Records, right?
Charles Perry 17:52
True. But the same outfit was handling everything. Same orchestra — Don, or rather Dom Corona.
Bob Abrahamian 18:09
I’m going to play your biggest hit — the song that still gets played weekly in Chicago — Let Love Be True. Then we’ll talk some more, okay?
Charles Perry 18:16
Okay.
[music playing – “Let Love Be True” by The Naturals]
Bob Abrahamian 20:49
Okay, you’re tuned to WHPK 88.5 FM in Chicago. That was The Naturals with their biggest hit, Let Love Be True. Right now, I have Charles Perry on the phone — founder of the group The Naturals. You can hear me, right Charles?
Charles Perry 21:00
Yeah.
Bob Abrahamian 21:02
So that was your first record released as The Naturals. Do you remember what year it came out?
Charles Perry 21:07
1963.
Bob Abrahamian 21:09
And that was a big hit, right?
Charles Perry 21:12
It was for us.
Bob Abrahamian 21:14
Was it a national hit? Did it get national radio play?
Charles Perry 21:17
Yeah.
Bob Abrahamian 21:19
So what was happening when that came out? Were you excited that you had such a big record?
Charles Perry 21:22
Oh yeah. But I have to tell you this story. The Drew-Vels’ hit “Tell Him” — that was originally written by Carlton, just like the B-side of Cotton — “What Am I.” Carlton was a genius. The girls didn’t have any material, so Carlton gave them that song — originally titled “Tell Her.” We recorded Let Love Be True the same night they recorded Tell Him.
They didn’t have a B-side. One of the producers asked if anyone could make up a song on the spot. Patty said, “Yeah,” and started singing “Just Because.” The girls came in, Carlton joined, and I sang baritone on that track.
Bob Abrahamian 22:44
So you sang on the Drew-Vels’ “Just Because”?
Charles Perry 22:46
Yeah — baritone. We recorded Tell Him and Let Love Be True the same night.
Bob Abrahamian 23:03
Where was that recorded?
Charles Perry 23:05
I believe it was at 700 South Michigan. The studio name might’ve been Universal.
Bob Abrahamian 23:11
So what was the deal with Carlton? Was he a member of The Drew-Vels too?
Charles Perry 23:17
No. But they liked the “boom boom” — his bass. So he sang bass on a lot of their records.
Bob Abrahamian 23:27
So he sings bass on many of their records?
Charles Perry 23:29
Yeah. Actually, four members of our group could sing bass — including me. Everyone sang first, second, baritone, and bass — except Woodridge.
Bob Abrahamian 23:42
That’s unusual.
Charles Perry 23:45
I patterned our group after The Flamingos. They were the best of all time.
Bob Abrahamian 23:52
So Let Love Be True got a lot of radio play. Were you getting a lot more shows at that time?
Charles Perry 23:59
Yeah.
Bob Abrahamian 24:01
There’s a story there too?
Charles Perry 24:03
Yes. Tell Him was number one. We were number two. I was sure we’d hit number one once they dropped — but Curtis Mayfield had other ideas. “I’m So Proud” came out, and I knew we were doomed.
Bob Abrahamian 24:28
Funny thing is, that song had a similar sound to yours.
Charles Perry 24:30
Yeah — people said we sounded like The Impressions.
Bob Abrahamian 24:33
Your harmonies were similar, but you had more bass.
Charles Perry 24:38
We never thought we sounded like them. We thought we had our own sound.
Bob Abrahamian 24:41
Curtis had a much higher voice.
Charles Perry 24:45
Yeah — we could do that too. Everyone in our group could sing high and low.
Bob Abrahamian 24:55
So on Let Love Be True, the lead was sung by Carlton Black?
Charles Perry 25:00
Right. He wrote the song too.
Bob Abrahamian 25:02
And the B-side was Three Bandidos?
Charles Perry 25:03
Yeah — and there's a story to that one too. In the studio — none of us could read music. Only Carlton played an instrument, and even then he wasn’t highly trained. But he could play what he wanted.
So we're in the studio, and they wanted to know how Three Bandidos went. We sang it a cappella. Then I told Dom Corona, our arranger, “Can we have something like a mariachi sound, with trumpets leading in?” He said, “Like this?” and had a couple trumpet players run something. I said, “Yeah — that’s it.” That’s how that song got its sound.
Bob Abrahamian 26:04
It’s kind of a novelty track — like a Western story, right?
Charles Perry 26:07
Yeah, about three bad guys riding into town and taking over. Almost like The Magnificent Seven.
Bob Abrahamian 26:16
So you had two more records on Smash. The next one was Different Girls. Was that recorded in the same session?
Charles Perry 26:21
No — that was recorded the next year.
Bob Abrahamian 26:24
Was that your choice to record that song?
Charles Perry 26:26
Yeah. Two guys wanted to do In the Morning — which Carlton had given to Butch Mason and his group. Two guys wanted Different Girls. I cast the deciding vote. Guess which one we did?
Bob Abrahamian 27:22
Different Girls.
Charles Perry 27:24
Yep. What a dummy, huh?
Bob Abrahamian 27:27
You could’ve been The Marvelows!
Charles Perry 27:29
Well, timing is everything. That was ’64 for us. In the Morning didn’t come out for them until ’68.
Bob Abrahamian 27:35
Let’s play Different Girls, then we can talk more.
[music playing – “Different Girls” by The Naturals]
Bob Abrahamian 30:20
Okay, you’re tuned to WHPK 88.5 FM in Chicago. That was The Naturals with their second record on Smash, Different Girls. I’m here on the phone with Charles Perry. So Charles, before we played the song, you mentioned that In the Morning was originally your song?
Charles Perry 31:18
Yeah. Carlton wrote it. It was ours. But Goo had moved to East Chicago Heights — it’s called Ford Heights now. We had drifted apart. So two guys wanted In the Morning, two wanted Different Girls, and I cast the vote. That’s what we recorded.
Bob Abrahamian 31:39
So Goo had already moved, but he was still in the group?
Charles Perry 31:43
Right — before The Marvelows came together.
Bob Abrahamian 31:59
Then you recorded one more record on Smash: I’m the One. Was that the same session?
Charles Perry 32:04
No — that was the next year, 1965. By then, there were only three of us left: Carlton, Goo, and me.
Bob Abrahamian 32:12
Really? Only three singers on that record?
Charles Perry 32:14
Yeah — but everyone thinks there’s more, especially on the flip side.
Bob Abrahamian 32:15
So Andrew Thomas was still with you, but Arthur Cox and Joseph Woolridge had left?
Charles Perry 32:29
Right. Guys got married, had different priorities. I got tired of tracking people down. I'd find one and tell him, “Stay here while I get the others.” Then someone else would be missing. It was frustrating.
Bob Abrahamian 33:18
You never tried to replace them?
Charles Perry 33:20
No. That summer, I bought a guitar and started writing. My dad had played guitar — he had a gospel quartet in Florida. One song I remembered was I Love the Lord by The Soul Stirrers.
I sat down, strummed, and came up with I’m the One. It wasn’t supposed to sound like The Soul Stirrers — it just sounded good to me.
Bob Abrahamian 34:16
Okay, let’s play that song now — The Naturals’ last record, I’m the One.
[music playing – “I’m the One” by The Naturals]
Bob Abrahamian 36:26
That was The Naturals with I’m the One. I’ve got Charles Perry on the phone. So you sang lead on that one?
Charles Perry 37:14
Yeah — and on Cotton. Those are the only two I sang lead on.
Bob Abrahamian 37:18
Carlton sang lead on the others?
Charles Perry 37:19
Yeah. My rule was: if you wrote the song and we recorded it, you sang lead.
Bob Abrahamian 37:22
The flip side of that record, Hey Little Girl, is also really good. Did your last two records get played on the radio?
Charles Perry 37:36
Yeah — they all got played.
Bob Abrahamian 37:39
But by then, you were down to three members. One of you lived in Chicago Heights, which is way south compared to Evanston, which is north.
Charles Perry 37:47
Right — Goo had moved.
Bob Abrahamian 37:59
So how did the group finally break up?
Charles Perry 38:01
After that last record, things just kind of fell apart. I loaned Carlton $25 to buy a guitar. We both got electrics and formed a band — still called The Naturals. But it wasn’t a vocal group anymore.
Bob Abrahamian 38:45
So it became a band?
Charles Perry 38:47
Yeah. Me and Carlton, plus Danny Marino on bass, Carlton’s cousin Jimmy Archer on drums, and Arthur Taylor — a guy I went to high school with — on sax. We started playing parties and local gigs.
Bob Abrahamian 39:45
And what was your role?
Charles Perry 39:47
Guitar and vocals. But I worked a 3–11 shift, and practices were in the evening. I’d sometimes take time off to rehearse. It got stressful. Eventually, I stepped back.
Bob Abrahamian 40:44
So Goo joined The Marvelows after that?
Charles Perry 40:46
Yeah — and after they recorded In the Morning, he contacted me. I rehearsed and sang with them for a couple of months.
Bob Abrahamian 40:59
What year was that?
Charles Perry 41:00
1969.
Bob Abrahamian 41:02
So now you had to drive all the way to Chicago Heights?
Charles Perry 41:05
Yeah. They had a place to rehearse, but it was always me doing the driving. And buying the rum and Cokes! I thought, “We drink after rehearsal — not before!” But they were a different type of group.
Bob Abrahamian 41:43
Why didn’t you stay with The Marvelows?
Charles Perry 41:46
It got draining — the distance, the cost. Plus, they didn’t rehearse like I was used to. Eventually, I dropped out, and I think the group fell apart soon after.
Bob Abrahamian 42:00
I know Carlton kept playing in the ’70s. What about you?
Charles Perry 42:02
I formed my own band and played locally in the Chicagoland area.
Bob Abrahamian 42:10
What was the band called?
Charles Perry 42:12
Just “The Band.” We didn’t travel — I had a full-time job.
Bob Abrahamian 42:18
You became a police officer, right?
Charles Perry 42:21
Yeah. First I worked at the Evanston Bus Company for seven years, then two years at Willett Motor Coach. I joined the Evanston Police Department in 1975.
Bob Abrahamian 42:34
You said you recorded again in the ’90s?
Charles Perry 42:36
Yeah — June 26, 1994. Me, Carlton, and Mickey Alexander, a guy we grew up with. The song was We Belong Together. It could’ve been a killer. But Mickey kept wanting to re-record and change things. Eventually, Carlton and I called it off.
Bob Abrahamian 43:23
Did Mickey sing in any groups?
Charles Perry 43:25
No, but he had a good enough voice. I kept feeding him wine in the studio until he gave me the raw emotion I wanted. It was good. I still have the master tape somewhere.
Bob Abrahamian 43:54
That would be great to hear one day. And you live in Florida now?
Charles Perry 44:04
Yeah — I’m retired. But I’m still writing songs. I take music lessons now — music theory. A couple of guys I know play instruments, and we’re working on putting a few songs on tape and trying to push them.
Bob Abrahamian 44:43
That’s great. I hope something comes out of it.
Charles Perry 44:45
I do too. But either way — it’s been a good life. I still love music.
Bob Abrahamian 44:49
No one can take Let Love Be True away from you.
Charles Perry 44:53
And we’re in two books — Chicago Soul and Chicago Doo Wop — and one magazine. I’ve got the books.
Bob Abrahamian 45:03
Now you’ll be online too, with this interview — at www.sittinginthepark.com.
Charles Perry 45:08
I’ve been telling everyone about your site. They’re probably listening from South Dakota and Minneapolis, where my nephews live. And my sisters in Chicago and Atlanta.
Bob Abrahamian 45:30
Thanks so much for being on the phone and sharing your story. Any last words for the audience?
Charles Perry 45:40
Yeah — the old music is the best. You had to sing. No gimmicks. Now, some singers sound so alike you can’t tell who’s who. Back then, everyone had a voice. You hear a lead — you know who it is. Like Purcell “Perk” Moses or Nate Nelson from The Flamingos. If you’ve ever heard I Only Have Eyes for You — that’s Nate. One of the prettiest leads ever.
Bob Abrahamian 46:31
Thanks again, Charles. If listeners want to hear this again, the interview will be at sittinginthepark.com. For now, here’s the B-side of I’m the One. This is Hey Little Girl.
Charles Perry 46:52
Thanks a lot, Bob.